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At my university a target school this would be impossible. The banks do full time hiring in the fall and the internship recruiting process doesn't really begin until the first week after winter break. So far we have only had the resume drops and what not. That first week after break is when most of the bigger banks begin giving info sessions a couple have already , roundtables and things of that nature.
The first round on campus interviews aren't until the end of January. By this point I believe SEO is almost finished. So I really doubt most of the juniors from target universities were denied through the regular recruiting process.
That leads me to believe that most of those placed through my school are Asian. These students brought something unique to the table. One was an ex-marine, one was on the lacrosse team, and one had their own business that was turning a profit. These students brought a unique perspective to the table so they got the job.
I think the same can be said for underrepresented minorities. If you don't have to take this test during regular recruiting why should SEO interns have to do it? Theoretically it is pretty easy to have a 3. Have a 4. I know students who have inflated GPAs because of this.
Is it really hard to get a leadership position in a decent student organization? Not at all, when it comes down to it the votes are based on popularity. There are clearly many students in general that are able to have good prerequisites and a good enough GPA without being very intelligent.
I am sure that one student isn't keeping you from getting in. If you are good enough you will get in. The internship only gets you in the door, you still need to perform to get the full time offer. For one, nothing is expected of underrepresented minorities and as a result at least where I'm from the teachers just accept this and don't expect anything from them. As a result if a minority slacks off, the teacher doesn't care unless they are hurt impacting other students.
Why do I suggest this? Many students get internships based on the fact that they have an "in" at the firm. Even when networking, people are most likely to recommend someone that is similar to themselves. Considering most of the ibanking world is white and male obviously white males have an advantage in this sense.
To me that advantage is as great as any advantage from affirmative action. The other day I was talking to a friend who has a brother and father at Abbott Laboratories. My dad didn't help at all. I interviewed with and networked with predominantly white males many of whom were Jewish during the process.
Yet I landed numerous jobs and found many of my white, Jewish interviewers to be extremely helpful. Everyone is going to face some bias, and from what I saw in the banking field, there is actually not that much bias to those who are percieved as earning their place.
For example, there were non-SEO black analysts from target schools in my program and they ended up in great groups and were not percieved any differently from the rest of the interns and they all got offers.
Rat, you are the type of person that motivates me even more. I love your thinking read: ignorance. I hate posting on these boards because things can really get out of hand, but I feel as though someone really needs to give you a life lesson. The sense of entitlement that some of you guys have is ridiculous. I have two degrees that are infinitely more difficult than anything you will ever encounter; The only chance I ever get to study is after practice at pm, when I am already extremely exhausted.
THen I have to get up again at 5;30am to go to our morning workouts. My situation is not unique. I would love to take any standardized test, ANY standardized test, and I guarantee that I would do better than you ever could. And I am a full minority-black. SEO is full of some of the strongest students.
Of course there are some that slip through the cracks, just like in investment banking. I mean, really, who are you to judge who is smart, who deserves a shot at a great job. Your ignorance amazes me. Actually, chances are, I turned down the acceptance to whatever Ivy league school you are attending right now. Difference is, I would not have paid a dime; you're in debt a hundred G's buddy.
Please, please, bring it down a level kid. Please internalize these feelings of entitlement you have. They will not get you very far. Yeah I hear that a ton of Asians apply to SEO, but I think it's extremely difficult to get into the program as an Asian largely because Asian's aren't underrepresented in banking at least at the lower levels.
At my bank at least, we didn't have any Asian SEO interns. Oh, and I forgot to mention one thing. SEO checks to see what banks you have already applied. They check to see if you have any rejections. This goes into their decisions as to which applicants get an internship. If, by the slight chance, you get in even though u were rejected bya bank, they will certainly not place you there.
Haha I'm not in debt at all my parents paid. I'm not American anyway, so I couldn't have gotten any financial aid. Did you turn down an acceptance to Yale by the way I am an econ and math double major, what were your degrees in? Actually, as a black person with a I'm sure you would have gotten into Yale and about every other school in this country. What is wrong with you? I am not even black but how can you make such remarks like that? You want a reward for English not being your first language?
You know how many international kids are in the USA whose 2nd language is English? Why would you take cheap shots at African Americans like that? Why even say this? Can you be anymore prejudice? It just amazes me that you can make these kinds of statements, when you as a Muslim Arab, could easily receive very degrading racial remarks from people if they wanted to stoop to your level. If you are an example of the kind of person that goes to Yale I am glad I did not go there. Have some self respect and why damage your school's reputation by talking like a complete idiot?
I'm just stating the facts. Do you disagree with me? I wouldn't have any problem if you stated a "fact" about Muslim Arabs by the way, I'm not really Muslim; was raised both Christian my mom's religion and Muslim. But even though all of the terrorists are Muslim, not all Muslims are terrorists. So if you said all Muslims are terrorists, I'd have to disagree. But see why would I even do that or say that? It is not only disrespectful, but just is not true.
Just like how it is disrespectful for you to say, "it is unheard of for blacks to have high test scores". I think this is pretty telling to the program. The other two aren't in finance anymore. I think the program has a HUGE variance, maybe too large.. To generalize the program I think is a bit harsh. It's just soo vast.
It's not like comparing one bank to another. I think he went through SEO. I don't see why, were all analysts here. We haven't made it yet buddy. I think most of the people ripping him to threads regarding his posts about SEO and minorities' test scores are probably minorities. I'm not going to bother commenting on SEO since I think everything has already been said - the program has its good points and its down points.
But what I do want to say is that Rat's comments regarding African-American tests scores and Muslim extremist terrorists are extremely un-politically correct, but nonetheless statistically true. So, I don't think you all should call him an "idiot" or "ignorant" in the senese that his comments about test scores and terroism aren't true because unfortunately, they are true , although I guess he WOULD be an idiot if he actually said that stuff aloud to anyone besides close acquaintances, since it's extremely un-politically correct.
Anyone who thinks he is "ignorant" because of his views on test scores and terrorists needs to do a bit of reseach. Wow, you obviously just don't comprehend the point of my post.
Did I say that African-Americans are stupid? Never did I say that the reason for this is because African-Americans are dumber than other racial groups. There are plenty of other explanations for this - lower socioeconomic status, for one. Look, it's just a fact, nothing more. You are extremely ignorant in that you're calling both myself and Rat ignorant for making that very well documented point. Also, never do I say that minorities don't deserve opportunities or that whites are more intelligent just that they test better; actually, Ashkanazi spelling?
Jews test the best, followed by Asians, and then whites. Now, try and understand the point I am trying to make, please, rather than just calling me a racist because the point is not politically correct. Can someone else please set this dpiderit guy straight?? I think Rat's behavior is reflective of his upbringing. He isn't from America, as he said, and the only exposure he has to America is the school he attends - which happens to be comfortably isolated from the realities of our country.
I am not condoning his behavior, but rather trying to rationalize it in my mind. His arguments are logically explained while many of yours are much too emotionally charged , but what is missing is an ounce of human decency and an awareness of others. From personal experience I've realized it takes a lot more than just intelligence to succeed in this world, I'm sure of it.
In fact, I would say that part of intelligence is the ability or even mere willingness to empathize with other people. If rat doesn't realize this soon enough, he will likely be disappointed later on in his career. I've actually been to the US a lot before college. And my mother is British so I've spent quite a bit of time in the UK. The views and statistics I expressed are basically those that every non-black, non-hispanic person is well-aware of most blacks and hispanics are well-aware of them too, they just don't like them , but just knows never to actually say aloud unless in the presence of close confidants because, as jgsim point out, they are extemely un-politically correct but still true.
And thanks to akers13 for pointing out that what I have said is logically explained and true, whereas those who have argued against me simply give emotionally charged arguments. The facts may not be pretty but they are still true. And I know never to utter these "facts" aloud expect when around close confidants in a non-professional setting. And I do have empathy to those who have been faced with great obstacles i.
I'm still waiting to meet those black and hispanic kids from the ghetto that affirmative action is supposed to help. In any professional services job, intelligence alone is not enough. You need to have EQ to maintain client relationships. As for the racial issue raised in this thread As a non-white American, I find that minorities are some of the most racist people that I know.
The sole reason why organizations such as SEO exist is to give underrepresented candidates an opportunity or at minimum an introduction. I'm extremely disappointed to read many of the posts on this thread. Very disheartening. The reality is that there are some extremely elitist professionals in IB. All the same, rest assured others in IB are nothing like that.
Myself included. Call it the school of hard knocks if you will, but I certainly know better than to think I have it made. That being said, the most disturbing comments from rat and others are those that allude to some sort of elite "inner circle":. What do they KNOW? This is not true. Not even close, kid. My dad has been a banker for years, he is black and his only black friend in banking went to business school with him.
Then again, when I visited the trading floor where I'll be working next year, there was only one black guy who promptly hit on me, hah. Asians and Indians are becoming a dominant force on Wall Street. There is actually an interesting debate on this it involves whether we should have affirmative action or not , and it centers around the case of Asians and Indians as "model minorities" and other minorities as "problem minorities.
Regarding fp's comment, I'd have to say that oddly enough I saw very few blacks and Hispanics in the the sales and trading program at my bank. I honestly think they had 1 black guy in the whole program. The sales and trading program seemed to be hugely dominated by Asians and Indians actually. Also, I noticed that a lot of trading desks were run by Indian guys. This leads me to assume that perhaps Indians are just the most adept at the skills required in trading?
How does it work and can a first year in Canada apply? I'm dating myself. I was actually referencing one of the first studies of it's kind on minorities in Wall Street which I think that was done around You guys are probably right in that the percentage is now stronger.
Anyways the study's focus was on the representation of African Americans and Hispanics. The study did not include Indians and Asians On that note, generally Indians and Asians are grouped together into general "Asian". Although more specifically, Indians are further classified as "Southern Asian". In any event those of you that are still in undergrad or are analysts in your 1st and 2nd year The perspective that I and many of my friends have in industry is significantly different than yours.
In fact, many of the programs that currently exist such as SEO are attributed to the commitment that MY generation has had to impact the presence of Hispanics, African Americans etc. Also, the discussion of this thread is very narrow minded in that it focuses on just one program.
Yet, trust me, the majority of you wouldn't even appreciate the grassroot efforts it has taken to even develop that program and others like it for underrepresented students of color. Argue about it. Resent it. Debate it ad nauseum if you must.
Try to discredit it even if you will. However, these programs are vitally important to Wall Street. Everyone seems to think SEO's 1 goal is to get you a job period. That is not true at all, but is just one of the small aspects that comes out of the program.
The thing about the people from SEO is that they are committed to helping others whether it be in their careers or just in their community. And I think because SEO gave them this tremendous opportunities with one of these firms, the people of SEO almost feel like it is their duty to help the future SEO kids as well as people around them who are disadvantaged. I personally would much rather work with someone in i-banking who has these types of qualities and this kind of personality than some kid who's main selling point is his SAT and his 5 internships.
I absolutely agree that it'd be better to work with someone who is committed to helping others whether it be in their careers or in the community over someone with just a pure SAT and 5 internships. But in reality, how many people have such a drive to contribute to society and how many people look at SEO as a way to get into a field that is widely viewed as lucrative and difficult to break into?
Also, the essential argument of tremendous personal qualities trumping the "good on paper" factors of SAT scores, grades, internships, etc. Yes, it's also often true that the intangible factors of SEO candidates CAN make them better in general as co-workers and candidates.
However, my point was that I think there's a certain consensus that with some diversity recruiting efforts the results don't overwhelmingly support this sort of characterization. I don't know what the SEO numbers are; but for example, after the UC system banned affirmative action based purely on race and rather focused on socioeconomic status hardship , the number of black individuals accepted into the UC system plummeted.
Clearly an indication that the old system emphasized the pure color of your skin more than hardship, overcoming of obstacles, genuinely interesting stories, experiences and drive to give back to the community. The significant proportion of SEO-recruited analysts who don't do as well as their peers suggests that there's much room for improvement in implementation of tools to achieve diversity. All I was trying to say is SEO kids bring a different skill set and personality than the typical qualified BB recruit.
It's fair to say that minorities have invaded I-Banking in particular and Wall Street in general. The bank where I interned at last summer had an associate intern class of 10, of which only 2 were white, the rest were all Indian. Ok, blast me if you will, but this is my personal observation on wall street. Indians tend to look out for other Indians almost all races are like that, but this is particularly true for Indians and this has a strong impact on hiring statistics.
It could unfairly crowd out other equally or more deserving applicants from different racial backgrounds. This is not something we want to encourage - the whole idea is to move away from race-based hiring. Disclaimer: The post above has been made by someone who is not currently employed in IBD , and has not had an interview yet So, what I don't understand is, if it's really racist preferences in hiring that prevent minorities from getting jobs in banking and necessitate programs like SEO, why are there so many Asians and Indians in banking?
I have a hard time believing that the racist white people which supposively fill banks are going to exclusively dislike Blacks or Hispanics - most people who are racist hate every race but their own. I think, that the color banks care most about is green - they just want to make money and want to hire whoever is going to do that best. I think if they had a similar situation with Black and Hispanic applicants, the banks would be filled with Blacks and Hispanics.
Ok, I have avoided this thread for a while, but that last comment by Rat was a testament to his ignorance. Please, please don't make me explain why. No, could you explain. Maybe it is just because I'm not American, but it just doesn't make sense why of a bunch of different ethnic groups that have been stepped on by the white man in the USA's past century, 2 need preferences yet the others succeed with flying colors better than the white man himself.
Perhaps my education was biased, but weren't the Jews enslaved over and over again throughout history, and decimated in the Holocaust? Do Jews get affirmative action in Germany? And wasn't there a tiny issue after the Vietnam war? Where are the reparations for this? There is bias everywhere and there is always going to be bias. Not everyone is dealt the same hand in life; the solution is simply to work harder i.
I have certainly seen some Black and Hispanic students at my school doing this, but most of the SEO interns at my bank this summer seemed content to be mediocre knowing that they have the cushion of affirmative action. The difficulty you have in understanding the issue is because you're thinking about it in entirely the wrong way.
I'm not in the least surprised, you just wouldn't know differently. First, remove the Asian group from your framework entirely. Asians and Indians do not fall into the same underrepresented group as Blacks and Hispanics. Certainly there are other underrepresented groups such as women etc, but for the sake of this post I'm just focusing on Blacks and Hispanics I don't believe anyone in this thread is debating the prevalence of Asians and Indians on Wall Street or investment banking specifically.
On a personal level, in none of my posts did I ever say "racism" At least I believe the fundamental issue behind the underrepresentation of Blacks and Hispanics in investment banking or Wall St. The Asian culture is generally very strongly inclined towards education and this is a huge advantage. Consider that the majority of Blacks and Hispanics aren't readily aware of careers in investment banking or business as they are careers in engineering, medicine, law etc. The industry therefore overall lacks role models and early outreach for Black and Hispanic candidates.
Moreover, the issue of acculturation is prefaced by the socioeconomic conditions which Blacks and Hispanics endure. The financial challenges alone that these ethnic groups face inhibits them from being "groomed" into the education tracks that would otherwise provide them the i best preparation in early high school e. In many regards these kids aren't exposed to opportunities in the industry until it's almost too late and they're often struggling to catch up in terms of knowledge, preparation, time etc.
What the SEO program and others like it do extraordinarily well is introduce talented students of color to careers in Wall St.
The exposure qualified candidates receive to professionals like them in the industry who have "made it" is very powerful. The shortage of Blacks and Hispanics in investment banking and Wall St. The connections these professionals make with each other over the tenure of their careers is very strong and is characterized by a higher degree of altruism, commitment to genuinely give back to their communities and a passion to make an impact on the next generation that follows.
These attributes create exceptional leaders. However, not many make it to the industry and the few that do don't survive the elitist culture long enough to have a stronger footprint. I have voted on disbursal of scholarship funds for minority students. I have sat on admissions committees that discuss enrollment trends in higher education. I have championed the start-up of more than one not-for-profit organization, I have been invited to sit on steering committees for comanies such as Kraft, General Electric, Salomon Smith Barney , JP Morgan etc.
These are never easy dialogues, however I do believe I know what I'm talking about. Yet, there is always someone at the level of rat that surfaces and the disparity in understanding doesn't surprise me anymore. He is not the first nor the last person to opine in such manner. I've become quite accostumed to it.
Kimowitz, I don't think anyone will argue about the perspective that both you or Rat allude to with respect to "implementation". Succesful implementation takes time and the Black and the Hispanic communities are learning how to tap into broader resources and learning how to execute better. At their core these communities need to fund and support stronger education initiatives at the K-9 level to have the strongest success in leveling the playing field long-term.
The most compelling politicians, business people, academics and community leaders worth their weight in gold are those who "get it" in this regard. They exert their influence to champion K-9 initiatives. Clearly the socioeconomic dynamics of this country are changing rapidly and the impact that the growth in these specific communities have experienced is yet to be fully seen.
In the interim, as programs like SEO and others continue to evolve we'll see more qualified candidates emerge who will be even better positioned to succeed in career tracks that have high barriers to entry such as investment banking etc. Yes, the system has kinks. However, to say that we're fetishing diversity or participating in superficial recruiting is misleading.
These are the types of "bucket" statements which sets people off in flames. There is always a problem with generalizations. Black people as a whole have quite different views on education. Anyone who has been to a top US university or participated in SEO can attest to this: Africans and particularly Nigerians are overrepresented. This includes either direct immigrants who come to the US for university, or children of immigrants born and raised there. So I'd specifically say "African-American" culture doesn't emphasize education as much as some other minority groups.
We've heard all these arguments over and over again, and they're played out in my opinion. There's no way you can convince a rational, impartial human being that we need job quotas for certain members of society to the exclusion of others.
Too bad there have been and still are barriers for non-whites and women for centuries that have basically given white men affirmative action by default.
Why don't you leave them alone and let them fend for themselves instead of working under the notion that they constantly need a leg up from egotistical whites like you? Tsk Tsk. If you only knew who I am. That is hysterical!!!!! Ha ha ha ha ha That made my day. Thanks I agree, perhaps not the ideal way to characterize the program and I may be speaking a little hyper-critically If that was offensive to anyone in particular, let me apologize and elaborate on what I meant in particular Based on affirmative action which is something that's more easily traceable than SEO patterns, and which is a nice analog to minority recruiting I think we are indeed fetishizing diversity at face-value in the sense that we're giving up a lot of other things for it for something of dubious return.
Not really changing anything significant in a real sense about the process of admission into these circles. Almost ignoring the actual merits of each individual in terms of efforts to overcome the myriad socioeconomic barriers that person may face. Then preferencing based on skin-color and almost nothing else , which ends up leading to the perverse outcome of arbitrarily slicing away something that should have accrued to one group mind you, a group that also suffers discrimination Surely, one can make the argument that even a shallow form of diversity is a worthy goal.
Which, to a degree, I think it is. But I doubt that minority-preferencing would receive the same amount of widespread support if it was meant only to achieve this. That is, skin-color diversity is meant to approximate intellectual, cultural, social, economic etc. But empirically there's overwhelming evidence that it's simply not doing that AS WELL as it should be or is portrayed to be.
And the cost of this sort of diversity is equality of opportunity and what seems to be violated is a fundamental idea of what is "fair. Yes, I've stated it in strong language again. But hey- I am speaking about the system in general, and yes I am sure there are programs out there that do achieve their aims well.
But general trends are very, very important too. They shouldn't only be sneered at and called ignorant, which is part of the reason why I began writing on this thread- because I felt that rat's opinion was getting an unfair thrashing.
Anyone go through it? Please tell us about it. I had my final round interview for IBD last week. I forgot to ask my interviewers for their business cards. Is that a dealbreaker? I know there are about slots for all programs. So that implies about 4, applicants.
Now is it inaccurate to assume that half of those applicants get selected for the phone screen, and that another half get selected to the 2nd round? And that every 2 out of 5 interviewing in the final round get an offer?? What do you all think? The purpose is to ensure readiness from Day 1 of their analyst training. Two hours. Participants are required to actively participate throughout the duration of the workshop.
Prizes and incentives will be awarded based on the level of completion, accuracy and sophistication of your models. The live, in-person workshop takes place in January.
In-person workshop attendance is not required to participate in the program. Yes, the SEO IB Prep program will expand on the internship training you received, as well as augment the experience acquired during your week internship.
The SEO Investment Banking Prep Program is a comprehensive 6-month program designed to help SEO interns, who received full-time offers to return to Wall Street firms enhance and sharpen their quantitative, as well as qualitative knowledge throughout their senior year of college. The prep program will provide participants with modeling proficiency while reinforcing their financial statement analysis skills to ensure they understand the mechanics, as well as the reasoning behind the inputs, in preparation for their full-time investment banking analyst roles and future career opportunities within the alternative investments sector.
SEO is committed to continue developing underrepresented diverse young analysts who can compete at the highest level with their peers in high finance.
Since most investment banking training programs for 1 st year analysts are evaluative , this training will provide the essential groundwork for career advancement and success. Additionally, it will serve as a medium for participants to continue their investment banking education post their internship through their collegiate senior year and help to close the learning gap that occurs when students return to school.
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